Sample JSON format
Example output structure returned by the API.
{
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"#ai_startups",
"#automation_production",
"#automotive_technology",
"#big_tech",
"#coalition",
"#innovation",
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"#public_subsidies",
"#robotics",
"#scandal_and_corruption",
"#startup_ecosystem"
],
"dominant_country": "IN",
"companies": [
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"Brain",
"DeepMind",
"Google",
"SpaceX",
"Tesla",
"Waymo",
"YouTube"
],
"dominant_custom_hashtags": [
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"#ai_progress",
"#human_curiosity"
],
"locations": [
"GB",
"IN",
"US"
],
"published_at": "2025-06-05T17:46:22Z",
"dominant_company": "Google",
"description": "Sundar Pichai is CEO of Google and Alphabet. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: ...",
"metrics_stats": {
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"camera_count": 1,
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"engineering_velocity": 1,
"historical_creators": 1,
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"javascript_engine_speed": 1,
"nobel_prizes_celebrated": 1,
"opportunity_duration_years": 1,
"population_accessible_knowledge": 1,
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"tokens_generated": 1,
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"waiting_time_black_test_records_reduced": 1,
"waiting_time_blood_test": 1,
"waiting_time_blood_test_after": 1
},
"channel": "@lexfridman",
"hashtags_stats": {
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"#automation_production": 1,
"#automotive_technology": 1,
"#coalition": 1,
"#robotics": 1,
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},
"url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6tWC4CdFQ",
"title": "Sundar Pichai: CEO of Google and Alphabet | Lex Fridman Podcast #471",
"dominant_hashtags": [
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],
"country": "Unknown",
"custom_hashtags_stats": {
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"#google_chrome": 1,
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},
"custom_hashtags": [
"#access_to_information",
"#access_to_technology",
"#ads_integration",
"#agricultural_revolution",
"#ai_as_savior",
"#ai_content_creation",
"#ai_impact",
"#ai_in_coding",
"#ai_in_email",
"#ai_in_programming",
"#ai_integration",
"#ai_internet_usage",
"#ai_mode",
"#ai_productivity",
"#ai_progress",
"#ai_revolution",
"#ai_video_models",
"#android_xr",
"#android_xr_platform",
"#artificial_jagged_intelligence",
"#artistic_free_expression",
"#asi_risks",
"#augmented_reality",
"#autonomous_systems",
"#beam_experience",
"#browser_innovation",
"#childhood_memories",
"#cognitive_capacity",
"#collaboration_in_person",
"#communication_improvement",
"#compute_limitations",
"#consumer_technology",
"#content_creation",
"#creativity_access",
"#crowdsourced_information",
"#decision_making",
"#deepmind_brain_merger",
"#deepmind_innovations",
"#deepmind_investments",
"#developer_glasses",
"#diplomatic_technology",
"#dynamic_web",
"#engineering_advancements",
"#engineering_velocity",
"#exponential_progress",
"#filmmaking_tools",
"#future_of_ai",
"#future_of_civilization",
"#future_of_journalism",
"#future_of_media",
"#future_opportunities",
"#future_technology",
"#gemini_pro",
"#gemini_robotics",
"#gemini_tokens",
"#general_intelligence",
"#generalist_skills",
"#google_ai",
"#google_beam",
"#google_chrome",
"#google_codebase",
"#google_products",
"#google_search",
"#historical_research",
"#human_civilization",
"#human_connection",
"#human_curiosity",
"#human_inventions",
"#human_progress",
"#humanity_united",
"#humility_in_leadership",
"#interactive_3d_video",
"#knowledge_creation",
"#leadership_styles",
"#life_changing_tech",
"#light_field_display",
"#model_capabilities",
"#model_improvement",
"#neolithic_package",
"#nobel_prize_celebration",
"#non_english_accessibility",
"#positive_trajectories",
"#productivity_boost",
"#productivity_multiplier",
"#project_astra",
"#quality_of_life",
"#query_fan_out",
"#real_time_collaboration",
"#recursive_improvement",
"#research_breakthroughs",
"#robotics_innovation",
"#self_driving_future",
"#space_exploration",
"#spatial_audio",
"#sports_management",
"#sundar_pichai_story",
"#team_bonds",
"#team_collaboration",
"#team_integration_challenges",
"#team_motivation",
"#tech_moonshots",
"#technological_progress",
"#technological_ripples",
"#technology_impact",
"#technology_progress",
"#unlocking_cognitive_capacity",
"#user_growth",
"#user_interface",
"#v8_engine",
"#virtual_interaction",
"#water_access",
"#waymo_progress"
],
"sponsor_bullets": [],
"stage5full": {
"prompt_version": "stage5full-v1.8-single+per-link-cache",
"generated_at": "2026-02-13T11:59:01Z",
"video_type": "interview",
"topic": "Sundar Pichai's Journey and AI's Impact",
"stance_map": {
"side_a": {
"label": "Sundar Pichai",
"arguments": [
"Highlights the transformative power of technology in daily life",
"Describes personal experiences with limited access to technology",
"Emphasizes optimism about humanitys ability to solve problems",
"Discusses the importance of collaboration and humility in leadership",
"Argues for the potential of AI to enhance creativity and productivity",
"Expresses confidence in AIs role in future technological advancements",
"Advocates for artistic free expression while balancing responsibility",
"Notes the significance of integrating AI into various sectors",
"Explains the evolution of Google Search with AI enhancements",
"Reflects on the importance of understanding human nature and curiosity"
]
},
"side_b": {
"label": "Critics of AI and Technology",
"arguments": [
"Questions the risks associated with AI and its potential threats",
"Raises concerns about the impact of AI on jobs and creativity",
"Challenges the notion of AI as a purely positive force",
"Expresses skepticism about the ethical implications of AI advancements",
"Warns against the potential for AI to exacerbate social inequalities"
]
},
"neutral_points": [
"Acknowledges the historical significance of technological advancements",
"Discusses the balance between innovation and ethical considerations",
"Recognizes the need for responsible AI development"
]
},
"confidence": 0.0,
"notes": "Sundar Pichai discusses his journey, the impact of technology, and the future of AI."
},
"time_classified_analysis": [
{
"start": 0.0,
"end": 300.0,
"text": "There was a five year waiting list. And we got a rotary telephone. But it dramatically changed our lives. People would come to our house to make calls to their loved ones. I would have to go all the way to the hospital to get black test records. And it would take two hours to go. And they would say, sorry, it's not ready. Come back the next day. Two hours to come back. And that became a five minute thing. So it's a kid, like I mean, this light bulb went in my head. You know, this power of technology to kind of change people's lives. We had no running water. You know, it was a massive drought. So they would get water in these trucks. Maybe eight buckets per household. Some me and my brother, sometimes my mom, we would wait in line, get that and bring it back home. Many years later, like we had running water and we had a water heater. And you would get hot water to take a shower. I mean, like, so you know, for me, everything was discreet like that. And so I've always had this thing, you know, first-hand feeling of like how technology can dramatically change. Like your life and like the opportunity it brings. I think if Pedom is actually high, at some point, all of humanity is like aligned in making sure that's not the case. Right. And so we'll actually make more progress against it. I think so. The irony is, so there is a self-modulating aspect there. Like I think if humanity collectively puts their mind to solving a problem, whatever it is, I think we can get there. So because of that, I think I'm optimistic on the P-DOOM scenarios. But that doesn't mean, I think the underlying risk is actually pretty high. But I'm, you know, I have a lot of faith in humanity, kind of rising up to the, to meet that moment. Take me through that experience when there's all these articles saying, you're the wrong guy to leave Google through this. Google's loss is done. It's over. The following is a conversation with Sundar Pachai, the CEO of Google and alphabet on this The Lex Friedman podcast. Your life story is inspiring to a lot of people. It's inspiring to me. You grew up in India, whole family living in a humble, two room apartment, very little, almost no access to technology. And from those humble beginnings, you rose to lead a $2 trillion technology company. So if you could travel back in time and told that, let's say 12 year old Sundar, you're not leading one of the largest companies in human history. What do you think that young kid would say? I would have probably laughed it off. You know, probably too far fetched to imagine or believe at that time. You would have to explain the internet first for sure. Me computers to me at that time. You know, I was 12 in 1984. So probably, you know, by then I had started reading about them. I hadn't seen one. What was that place like? Take me to a childhood. Now I grew up in Chennai. It's in South of India. It's a beautiful bustling city. Lots of people, lots of energy. You know, simple life, definitely, like foreign memories of playing cricket outside the home. We just used to play on the streets. All the neighborhood kids would come out and we would play till it got dark and we couldn't play anymore. Therefore, traffic would come. We would just stop the game. Everything would drive through and you would just continue playing, right? Just to kind of get the visual in your head. You know, pre computers is a lot of free time. Now that I think about it, now you have to go and seek that quiet solitude or something. Newspapers, books, is how I gained access to the was information at the time you will. My grandfather was a big influence. He worked in the post office. He was so good with language. His English, you know, his handwriting till today is the most beautiful handwriting I've ever seen. He would write so clearly, he was so articulate. And so he kind of got me introduced into books. He loved politics. So we could talk about anything. And you know, that was there in my family throughout. So lots of books, trashy books, good books, everything from iron, brand to books on philosophy to stupid crime novels. So books was a big part of my life, but the kind of this soul, it's not surprising. I ended up at Google because Google's mission kind of always resonated deeply with me. This access to knowledge, I was hungry for it, but definitely have a phone memories of my childhood.",
"summary_synthesis": "Technological advancements transformed daily tasks, significantly reducing time and improving access to essential services, which enhanced quality of life.",
"summary_block": [
"There was a five year waiting list for a rotary telephone, which dramatically changed lives by allowing people to make calls to loved ones.",
"Access to black test records required a two-hour trip to the hospital, which was reduced to a five-minute task with technology.",
"The speaker experienced a lack of running water during a massive drought, relying on trucks to deliver water, which later transitioned to having running water and a water heater.",
"The speaker reflects on the power of technology to change lives and create opportunities, expressing optimism about humanity's ability to solve problems collectively.",
"Sundar Pichai, CEO of Google, shares his inspiring life story, growing up in a humble two-room apartment in India with little access to technology.",
"Pichai recalls his childhood in Chennai, playing cricket in the streets and gaining access to information through newspapers and books, influenced by his grandfather."
],
"hashtags": [
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"#international_politics",
"#scandal_and_corruption"
],
"custom_hashtags": [
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"#childhood_memories",
"#sundar_pichai_story",
"#technology_impact",
"#water_access"
],
"companies": [
"Alphabet",
"Google"
],
"country": [
"IN"
],
"metrics": [
{
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"value_raw": "two hours",
"value": 2.0,
"unit": "hours",
"context": "time taken to retrieve black test records from the hospital",
"why_it_matters": "Long waiting times hinder access to healthcare services.",
"evidence_quote": "And it would take two hours to go."
},
{
"metric": "waiting_time_black_test_records_reduced",
"value_raw": "five minutes",
"value": 5.0,
"unit": "minutes",
"context": "time taken to retrieve black test records after technological improvements",
"why_it_matters": "Significantly improved access to healthcare services.",
"evidence_quote": "And that became a five minute thing."
},
{
"metric": "household_water_delivery_buckets",
"value_raw": "eight buckets",
"value": 8.0,
"unit": "buckets",
"context": "amount of water delivered per household during drought",
"why_it_matters": "Limited water supply impacts daily living conditions.",
"evidence_quote": "Maybe eight buckets per household."
}
],
"numeric_facts": null,
"numeric_overview": null,
"side_a_arguments": [
"Highlights the transformative power of technology in daily life",
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"Emphasizes optimism about humanitys ability to solve problems"
],
"side_b_arguments": [],
"neutral_points": []
},
{
"start": 300.0,
"end": 600.0,
"text": "Access to knowledge was there. So that's the well we had. You know, every aspect of technology I had to wait for a while, I've obviously spoken before about how long it took for us to get a phone, about five years, but it's not the only thing. A telephone. There was a five year wait list. And we got a rotary telephone, but it dramatically changed our lives. You know, people would come to our house to make calls to their loved ones. You know, I would have to go all the way to the hospital to get blood test records. And it would take two hours to go. And they would say, sorry, it's not ready. Come back the next day. Two hours to come back. And that became a five minute thing. So it's a kid like I mean, this light bulb went in my head. You know, this power of technology to kind of change people's lives. We had no running water. You know, it was a massive drought. So they would get water in these trucks, maybe eight buckets per household. Some me and my brother, sometimes my mom, we would wait in line, get that and bring it back home. Many years later, like we had running water and we had a water heater. And you would get hot water to take a shower. I mean, like, so you know, for me, everything was discreet like that. And so I've always had this thing, you know, first and feeling of like how technology can dramatically change, like your life and like the opportunity it brings. So, you know, that was kind of a subliminal takeaway for me throughout growing up. And you know, I kind of actually observed it and felt it, you know, so we had to convince my dad for a long time to get a BC already. You know what a BC RS, yeah. I'm trying to date you now. But you know, because before that, you only had like kind of one TV channel. Right. That's it. And so you know, you can watch movies or something like that. But this is by the time I was in 12th grade, we got a VCR, you know, it was a, like a Panasonic, which we had to go to some like shop, which had kind of smuggled it in, I guess. And that's where we bought a VCR. But then being able to record like a World Cup football game and then or like get put like video tapes and watch movies like all that. So like, you know, I had these discrete memories growing up. And so you always left me with the feeling of like how getting access to technology drives that step change in your life. I don't think you'll ever be able to equal the first time you get hot water to have that convenience of going and opening a tap and have hot water come out. Yeah. It's interesting. We take for granted the progress we've made. If you look at human history, just those plots that look at GDP across 2000 years. And you see that exponential growth to where most of the progress happens since the industrial revolution. And we just take for granted, we forget how far we've gone. So our ability to understand how great we have it. And also how quickly technology can improve is quite poor. Oh, I mean, it's extraordinary. You know, I go back to India now, the power of mobile. You know, it's mind blowing to see the progress through the arc of time. It's phenomenal. What advice would you give to young folks listening to this all over the world? Who look up to you and find your story inspiring? Who want to be maybe the next one, Derbacheye, who want to start create companies, build something that has a lot of impact in the world. Look, it's you have a lot of luck along the way. But you obviously have to make smart choices. You're thinking about what you want to do. Your brain is telling you something. But when you do things, I think it's important to kind of get that. Listen to your heart and see whether you actually enjoy doing it, right? That feeling of if you love what you do, it's so much easier. And you're going to see the best version of yourself. It's easier said than done. I think it's tough to find things you love doing. But I think kind of listening to your heart a bit more than your mind in terms of figuring out what you want to do. I think it's one of the best things I would tell people. The second thing is trying to work with people who you feel at various points in my life. I've worked with people who I felt were better than me. You almost are sitting in a room talking to someone and they're like, wow. You want that feeling a few times. Trying to get to yourself in a position where you're working with people who you feel are kind of like stretching your abilities is what helps you grow, I think. So putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. And I think often you'll surprise yourself.",
"summary_synthesis": "The introduction of technology, such as rotary phones and VCRs, significantly improved daily life and convenience, leading to greater opportunities and quality of life.",
"summary_block": [
"Access to technology dramatically changed lives, such as the introduction of a rotary telephone that allowed people to make calls from home.",
"The process of obtaining blood test records took two hours, but technology later reduced it to five minutes, highlighting its life-changing impact.",
"The transition from no running water to having hot water available for showers was a significant convenience that was deeply appreciated.",
"The speaker recalls the long wait to convince their father to buy a VCR, which allowed for recording and watching movies, marking a notable technological advancement in their life.",
"The speaker emphasizes the importance of recognizing the progress made in technology and how it can improve lives, especially in the context of historical growth since the industrial revolution.",
"Advice for young people includes listening to their heart to find what they love doing, as this leads to becoming the best version of themselves."
],
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],
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{
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"value_raw": "two hours",
"value": 2.0,
"unit": "hours",
"context": "time taken to obtain blood test records before technology improvements",
"why_it_matters": "Reducing this time highlights the efficiency gains from technological advancements.",
"evidence_quote": "It would take two hours to go. And they would say, sorry, it's not ready."
},
{
"metric": "waiting_time_blood_test_after",
"value_raw": "five minutes",
"value": 5.0,
"unit": "minutes",
"context": "time taken to obtain blood test records after technology improvements",
"why_it_matters": "This drastic reduction illustrates the transformative impact of technology on healthcare access.",
"evidence_quote": "And that became a five minute thing."
}
],
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"numeric_overview": null,
"side_a_arguments": [
"Discusses the importance of collaboration and humility in leadership",
"Argues for the potential of AI to enhance creativity and productivity"
],
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"neutral_points": []
},
{
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"text": "So I think being open-minded enough to kind of put to yourself in those positions is maybe, maybe another thing I would say. Well, lessons can we learn? And from an outsider perspective, for me, looking at your story and gotten to know you a bit, your humble, your kind, usually when I think of somebody who has had a journey like yours and climbs to the very top of leadership, they're in a cut-throat world, they're usually going to be a bit of an asshole. So what was then when we supposed to draw from the fact that your general approach is of balance, of humility, of kindness listening to everybody? What's your secret? I do get angry, I do get frustrated, I have the same emotions all of us do right in the context of work and everything. But a few things, I think, you know, over time I figured out the best way to get the most out of people. You know, you kind of find mission oriented people who are in the shared journey, who have just inner drive to excellence to do the best. And you know, you kind of motivate people and you can achieve a lot that way. Right? And so it often tends to work out that way. But have there been times like, you know, I lose it? Yeah. But you know, maybe less often than others. And maybe over the years, less and less so because, you know, I find it's not needed to achieve what you need to do. So losing your shit has not been productive? Yeah, less often than not. I think people respond to that. Yeah. They may do stuff to react to that. Like what you actually want them to do the right thing. And so, you know, maybe there's a bit of like sports, you know, a sports fan in football coaches in soccer, that football. You know, people often talk about like man management, right? Great coaches too. Right? I think there is an element of that in our lives. Maybe you get the best out of the people you work with. You know, at times you're working with people who are so committed to achieving. If they've done something wrong, they feel it more than you do, right? So you treat them differently. And, you know, occasionally there are people who you need to clearly let them know like there wasn't okay or whatever it is. But I've often found that not to be the case. And sometimes the right words at the right time, spoken firmly can reverberate through time. Also sometimes the unspoken words. You know, people can sometimes see that like, you know, you're unhappy without you saying it. And so sometimes the silence can deliver that message even more. Sometimes less is more. Who's the greatest soccer player of all time? Messier or Naldo or Pele or Maradona? I'm going to make, you know, in this question. Is this going to be a political answer? No, I will tell the truth, who the answer is. So it's messy. You know, it's been interesting because my son is a big Christian or Naldo fan. And so we've had to watch El Classico's together, you know, with that dynamic in there. I so admire CR7s. I mean, I've never seen an athlete more committed to that kind of excellence. And so he's one of the all time grades. But you know, for me, Messier is it? Yeah, when I see Len on a messy, you just are in awe that humans are able to achieve that level of greatness and genius and artistry. When we talk, we'll talk about AI, maybe robotics and this kind of stuff. That level of genius, I'm not sure you can possibly match by AI in a long time. It's just an example of greatness. And you have that kind of greatness and other disciplines. But in sport, you get to visually see it, I'm like anything else. And just the timing, the movement. This is genius. I had the chance to see him a couple of weeks ago. He played in San Jose against the quake. So I went to see it, see the game was a fan on the had good seats. New where you would play in the second half, hopefully. Even at his age, just watching him when he gets the ball, that movement, you know, you're right, that special quality. It's tough to describe, but you feel it when you see it, yeah. He's still got it. If we rank all the technological innovations throughout human history, let's go back. Maybe the history of human civilization is 12,000 years ago. And you rank them by the how much of a productivity multiplier they've been. So we can go to electricity or the labor mechanization of the industrial revolution. Or we can go back to the first agricultural revolution 12,000 years ago. In that long list of inventions, do you think AI, when history is written 1,000 years from now, do you think it has a chance to be the number one productivity multiplier?",
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"text": "It's a great question. Look many years ago, I think it might have been 2017 or 2018. You know, I said at that time, like, you know, AI is the most profound technology humanity will ever work on. It will be more profound than fire or electricity. So I have to back myself, I, you know, I still think that's the case. You know, when he asked this question, I was thinking, well, do we have a recency bias, right? You know, like it sports, it's very tempting to call the current person. You're seeing the greatest player, right? And so is there a recency bias? And, you know, I do think from first principles, I would argue, AI will be bigger than all of those. I didn't live through those moments, you know, two years ago, I had to go through a surgery and then I processed that there was a point in time people didn't have anesthesia when they went through these procedures. At that moment, I was like, that has got to be the greatest invention humanity has ever done, right? So, look, we don't know what it is to have lived through those times. But, you know, many of what you're talking about, where kind of this general, things which pretty much affected everything, you know, electricity or internet, etc. But I don't think we've ever dealt with the technology, both which is progressing so fast, becoming so capable, it's not clear what the ceiling is. And the main unique, it's recursively self-improving, right? It's capable of that. And so the fact it is going, it's the first technology will kind of dramatically accelerate creation itself, like creating things, building new things, can improve and achieve things on its own. Right? I think, like puts it in a different league, right? And so, different league. And so I think the impact it will end up having will far surpass everything we've seen before. Obviously, with that comes a lot of important things to think and wrestle with, but I definitely think that will end up being the case. Especially if you get the point of where we can achieve superhuman performance on the AI research itself. So it's the technology that may, there's an open question, but it may be able to achieve a level toward the technology itself can create itself better than it could yesterday. It's like the move, 37 of alpha research or whatever it is, right? You know, when you're right, when it can do novel, self-directed research, obviously for a long time, we will have hopefully always humans in the loop and all that stuff. And these are complex questions to talk about, but yes, I think the underlying technology, you know, I've said this, like if you watched seeing alpha go start from scratch, be clueless and like become better through the course of a day, you know, like, you know, kind of like, you know, really hits you when you see that happen. Even our like the VO3 models, if you sample the models when they were like 30% done and 60% done and looked at what they were generating. And you kind of see how it all comes together. It's kind of like, I would say it's kind of inspiring, little bit unsettling, right? As a human. So all of that is true, I think. Well, the interesting thing of the Industrial Revolution, electricity, like you mentioned, I'll go back to the again, the agricultural, the first agricultural revolution, there's what's called the Neolithic package or the first agricultural revolution, it wasn't just that the nomads settled down and started planting food, but all this other kinds of technology was born from that and it's including this package. It wasn't in one piece of technology. It's there's these ripple effects, second and third order effects that happen. Everything from something silly, like silly, profound, like pottery, it can store liquids and food to something we kind of take for granted, but social hierarchies and political hierarchies, so like early government was formed. Because it turns out if humans stop moving and have some surplus food, they start coming up with, they get bored and they start coming up with interesting systems and then trade emerges, which turns out to be a really profound thing. Like I said, government, I mean, there's just second and third order effects from that, including that package is incredible. And probably extremely difficult, if you ask one of the people in the nomadic tribes to predict that, it will be impossible. It's difficult to predict, but all that said, what do you think are some of the early things we might see",
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"text": "in the quote unquote AI package? I mean, most of it probably we don't know today, but like, you know, the one thing which we can tangibly start seeing now is, obviously with the coding progress, you got a sense of it. It's going to be so easy to imagine, like thoughts in your head translating that into things that exist, that'll be part of the package, right? Like it's going to empower almost all of humanity to kind of express themselves, maybe in the past you could have expressed with words, but like you could kind of build things into existence, right? You know, maybe not fully today. We are at the early stages of vibe coding. You know, I've been amazed at what people have put out online with VO3, but it takes a bit of work, right? You have to stitch together a set of prompts, but all this is going to get better. The thing I always think about this is the worst it'll ever be, right? Like at any given moment of time. Yes, actually you went there as kind of a first thought, so an exponential increase of access to creativity. Software, creation, are you creating a program, a piece of content to be shared with others? Games down the line, all of that, like just becomes infinitely more possible. Well, I think the big thing is that it makes it accessible, it unlocks the cognitive capabilities of the entire 8 billion. No, I agree. Look, think about 40 years ago, maybe in the US there were five people who could do what you were doing. Like go do an interview, you know, you know. But today think about with YouTube and other products, etc. Like how many more people are doing it? So I think this is what technology does, right? Like when the internet created blogs, you know, you heard from so many more people. So I think, but with AI, I think that number won't be in the few hundreds of thousands. You'll be tens of millions of people, maybe even a billion people. Like putting out things into the world in a deeper way. And I think it'll change the landscape of creativity. And it makes a lot of people nervous, like for example, whatever, Fox, MSNBC, CNN, or really nervous about this plot. Like you mean this dude in the suit, could just do this and YouTube and thousands of others, tens of thousands, millions of other creators can do the same kind of thing. That makes them nervous. And now you get a podcast from no book LM. It's about five to 10 times better than any podcast other. I'm joking at this time. And maybe not. And that changes you have to evolve because I on the podcasting front, I'm a fan of podcasts. Much more than I am a fan of being a host or whatever. If there's great podcasts that are both AI's, I'll just stop doing this podcast. I'll listen to that podcast. We have to evolve and you have to change. And that makes people really nervous, I think. But it's also really exciting future. The only thing I may say is I do think like in a world in which there are two AI, I think people value and choose just like in chess. You and I would never watch Stockfish 10 or whatever an AlphaGo play against each other. Like it would be boring for us to watch. But Magnus Carlson and Gukesh, that game would be much more fascinating to watch. So it's tough to say like one way to say is you'll have a lot more content. And so you will be listening to AI generated content because sometimes it's efficient, etc. But the premium experiences you value might be a version of like the human essence wherever it comes through. Going back to what we talked earlier about watching messy drivel the ball. And I'm sure a machine will do much better than messy. But I don't know whether it would evoke that same emotion in us. So I think that'll be fascinating to see. I think the element of podcasting or audiobooks that is about information gathering that part might be removed. Or that might be more efficiently and in a compelling way done by AI. But then you'll be just nice to hear human struggle with the information. Content with the information. Try to internalize it. Combine it with the complexity of our own emotions and consciousness and all that kind of stuff. But if you actually want to find out about a piece of history, you go to Gemini. If you want to see Lex struggle with that history, then you look or other humans. You look at that. But the point is it's going to change the nature. Continue to change the nature of how we discover information, how we consume the information, the same way the YouTube change everything completely, change news. And that's something our society is struggling with.",
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"text": "YouTube, look, YouTube enabled, I mean, you know this better than anyone else. It's enabled so many creators. There is no doubt in me that like we will enable more filmmakers than that have ever been. Right? You're going to empower a lot more people. So I think there is an expansionary aspect of this, which is underestimated, I think. I think it will only human creativity in a way that hasn't been seen before. It's tough to internalize. The only way is if you brought someone from the fifties or forties and just put them in front of YouTube, you know, I think it would blow their mind away. Similarly, I think we would get blown away by what's possible in a 10 to 20 year time frame. Do you think there's a future? How many years out is it that let's say it's put a mark on it 50% of content in a good content? 50% of good content is generated by VO456. You know, I think depends on what it is for. Like, you know, maybe if you look at movies today with CGI, there are great filmmakers who like you still look at like who the directors are and who use it. There are filmmakers who don't use it at all. You value that. There are people who use it incredibly. You know, think about somebody like a James Cameron, like what you would do with these tools in his hands. But I think there'll be a lot more content created, like just like writers today use Google Docs and not think about the fact that they are using a tool like that. Like people will be using the future versions of these things. Like it won't be a big deal at all to them. I've gotten a chance to get to know Darren Aronowski. Well, he's been really leaning in and trying to figure it's fun to watch a genius who came up before any of this was even remotely possible. He created pie, one of my favorite movies. And from there, just continued to create a really interesting variety of movies. And now he's trying to see how can they be used to create compelling films. You have people like that. You have people who have gotten just no edgy or folks. They're AI first like door brothers. Both Darren Aronowski and door brothers create at the edge of the Overton Window Society. You know, they push whether it's sexuality or violence. It's edgy. Like artists are. But it's still classy. It doesn't cross that line. Whatever that line is. 100th Thomsen is this line. That the only way to find out where the edge where the line is is by crossing it. And I think for artists that's true, that's kind of their purpose sometimes. Comedians and artists just cross that line. I wonder if you can comment on the weird place that puts Google. Because Google's line is probably different than some of these artists. What's your, how do you think about specific video and flow about like how to allow artists to do crazy shit. But also like the responsibility of like not for it not to be too crazy. It's a great question. Look, part of you mentioned Darren. You know, he's a clear visionary, right? Part of the reason we work started working with them early on video is he's one of those people who was able to kind of. See that future get inspired by it and kind of showing the way for how creative people can express themselves with it. Look, I think when it comes to allowing artistic free expression. It's one of the most important values in a society. Right. I think, you know, artists have always been the ones to push, push boundaries, expand the frontiers of thought. And so look, I think I think that's going to be an important value we have. So I think we will provide tools and put it in the hands of artists for them to use and put out their work. Those APIs, I mean, I almost think of that as infrastructure. Just like when you provide electricity to people or something, you want them to who use it and like you're not thinking about the use cases on top of it. It's a pain brush. Yeah. And so I think that's how obviously there have to be some things and society needs to decide that a fundamental level what's okay, what's not. We'll be responsible with it. But I do think, you know, it comes to artistic free expression. I think that's one of those values we should work hard to defend. I wonder if you can comment on maybe earlier versions of Gemini were a little bit careful on the kind of things he would be willing to answer. I just want to comment on how I was really surprised and pleasantly surprised and enjoy the fact that Gemini 25 Pro is a lot less careful in a good sense.",
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"text": "Don't ask me why, but I've been doing a lot of research on James Conn and the the SX. So there's a lot of violence there in that history. It's a very violent history. I've also been doing a lot of research on World War One and World War Two. In earlier versions of Gemini were very basically this kind of sense. Are you sure you want to learn about this? And now it's actually very factual objective. Talks about very difficult parts of human history and does so with nuance and depth. It's been really nice. But there's a line there that I guess Google has to kind of walk. I wonder if it's also an engineering challenge. How to do that at scale across all the weird queries that people ask. What can you just speak to that challenge? How do you allow Gemini to say again, forgive pardon my French crazy shit, but not too crazy? I think one of the good insights here has been, has the models are getting more capable? The models are really good at this stuff. And so I think in some ways maybe a year ago the models were in full lead there. So they would also do stupid things more often. And so you know you're trying to handle those edge cases, but then you make a mistake in how you handle those edge cases and it compounds. But I think with 2.5 what we've particularly found is once the models cross a certain level of intelligence and sophistication. You know they are they are able to reason through these nuance issues pretty well. And I think users really want that right like you know you want as much access to the raw model as possible right. But I think it's a great area to think about like you know over time. You know we should allow more and more closer access to it. Maybe obviously let people custom prompts if they wanted to and like you know and you know experiment with it etc. I think that's an important direction but look the first principles we want to think about it is. Scientific standpoint like making sure the models and I'm saying scientific in the sense of like how you would approach math or physics or something like that. From first principles having the models reason about the world being nuanced etc. You know from the ground up is the right way to build these things right not like some subset of humans kind of hard coding things on top of it. So I think it's the direction we've been taking and I think you'll see us continue to push in the direction. Yeah actually asked I gave these notes I took extensive notes and I gave them to Gemini and said can you ask a novel question that's not in these notes. And it wrote me Gemini continues to really surprise me really surprise me it's been really beautiful it's an incredible model. The question it's it generated was you meaning Sundar told the world Gemini is turning out 480 trillion tokens a month. What's the most life changing five word sentence hiding in that haystack that's a Gemini question. But it made me it gave me a sense I don't think you can answer that but it gave me it woke me up to like all of these tokens are providing little aha moments for people across the globe. So that's like learning that those tokens are people are curious they ask a question and they find something out and it truly could be life changing. Oh you're it say look you know I had the same feeling what search many many years ago you you know you you definitely. You know this tokens per month is like grown 50 times in the last 12 months is that I care by the way the way it is it is it is accurate glad it got it right. But you know that number was 9.7 trillion tokens per month 12 months ago right it's gone gone up to 480 you know it's a 50 x increase. So there's no limit to human curiosity and I think it's it's one of those moments maybe I don't think it is there today but maybe one day there's a five word phrase. Which says what the actual universe is or something like that and something very meaningful but I don't think we are quite there yet. Do you think the scaling laws are holding strong on. There's a lot of ways to describe the scaling laws for AI but on the pre training on the post training fronts. So the flip side of that do you anticipate AI progress will hit a wall. Is there a wall? You know it's a cherished micro kitchen conversation once in a while I have it you know like when Demis is visiting or you know if Demis car I Jeff know Sergei bunch of our people like we sit and you know talk about this right and. Look I we see a lot of headroom ahead right I think we've been able to optimize and improve on all France right.",
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"text": "Pre training post training test time compute tool use right over time making these more agent take so getting these models to be more general world models in that direction like we are three. You know the physics understanding is dramatically better than what the deal one or something like that was. So you kind of see on all those dimensions I feel you know progress is very obvious to see. And I feel like there is significant headroom more importantly you know fortunate to work with some of the best researchers on the planet right they think. There is more headroom to be had here and so I think we have an exciting trajectory ahead it's tougher to say you know each year I sit and say okay we're going to throw 10 next more compute or the course of next year at it and like will be see progress. Sitting here today I feel like the year ahead will have a lot of progress and do you feel any limitations like that or the bottlenecks. Compute limited data limited idea limited do you feel any of those limitations or is it forcing my head and off France. I think it's computer limited in this sense right like you know we can all part of the reason you've seen us to flash nano flash and pro models. But not an ultra model it's like for each generation we feel like we've been able to get the pro model at like. I don't know 80 90% of ultra capability but ultra would be a lot more like slow and lot more expensive to serve. But what we've been able to do is to go to the next generation and make the next generations pro ask what is the previous generation's ultra but be able to serve it in a way that it's fast and you can use it and so on. So I do think scaling loss of working but it's tough to get at any given time the models we all use the most. This may be like a few months behind the maximum capability we can deliver right because that won't be the fastest easy as to use etc also that's in terms of intelligence it becomes harder and harder to measure. Performance in quotes because you know you can argue generally flash is much more impactful than pro just because of the latency super intelligent already. I mean sometimes like latency is maybe more important intelligence especially when the intelligence is just a little bit less and flash not it's still incredibly smart model yeah. And so you have to now start measuring impact and then. It feels like benchmarks are less and less capable of capturing the intelligence of models the effectiveness of models the usefulness the real world usefulness of models another kitchen question. So lots of folks are talking about a timeline for a GI or ASI artificial super intelligence so a GI loosely defined is basically human expert level it a lot of the main fields of pursuit for humans. And ASI is what a GI becomes presumably quickly by being able to self improve so coming far superior in intelligence across all these disciplines and humans when do you think we'll have a GI is 2030 a possibility. There's one other term we should throw in there I don't know who who used it first maybe car party did a GI have you have you heard a GI the artificial jagged intelligence sometimes feels that way right both there are progress and you see what they can do and then like you can trivially find they make numeric letters or like you know counting ours and strawberry or something which seems to trip up most models or whatever it is right so. So maybe we should throw that term in there I feel like we are in the age I face where like dramatic progress something's don't work well but overall you're seeing lots of progress but if your question is will it happen by 2030 look we constantly move the lion afforded means to be a GI there are moments today you know like sitting in a way more in a San Francisco street with all the crowds and the people and kind of work it's way to. I see glimpses of it there the car is sometimes kind of impatient trying to work its way using Astra like in Gemini live or seeing you know asking questions about the world what's this skinny building doing in my neighborhood it's a street light not a building you see glimpses that's why I use the word a GI because. When you see stuff which obviously you know we're far from a GI to so you have both experience simultaneously happening to you I'll answer your question but I'll also throw this almost feel the term doesn't matter what I knows by 2030 there'll be such dramatic progress.",
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"text": "We'll be dealing with the consequences of that progress both the positives both the positive externalities and the negative externalities that come with it in a big way by 2030 so that I strongly feel right whatever we may be arguing about the term or maybe Gemini can answer what that moment is in time in 2030 But I think the progress will be dramatic right so that I believe in the AI think it has reached a GI by 2030 I would say we will just fall short of that timeline right so I think it'll take a bit longer it's amazing in the early days of Google deep mine in 2010 they talked about it 20 year time frame to achieve. A GI so which is kind of fascinating to see but. You know I for me the whole thing seeing what Google brain did in 2012 and when we acquired deep mine in 2014 right close to where we're sitting in 2012 you know Jeff Dean showed the image of the neural networks could recognize a picture of a cat right and identify it you know this early versions of brain right and so. You know we all talked about couple decades I don't think we'll quite get there by 2030 so my senses it's slightly after that but I I would stress it doesn't matter like what that definition is. Because. You will have mind blowing progress on many dimensions maybe I can create videos we have to figure out as a society how do we we need some system by which we all agree that this is a I generated and we have to disclose it in a certain way maybe. Because how do you distinguish reality otherwise yeah there's so many interesting things you said so first I'll just look at back at this recent now feels like distant history. With Google brain I mean that was before TensorFlow before TensorFlow was made public and open source so the tooling matters to combine with GitHub ability to share code. Then you have the ideas of attention transformers and diffusion now and then there might be a new idea that seems simple in retrospect but we'll change everything and that could be the post training the inference time innovations and I think Shazcian tweeted that Google is just one great UI from completely winning the air is meaning like. UI is a huge part of it like how that intelligence. I think Logan Cooper object likes to talk about this right now it's an LLM but it become like when is it going to become a system where you're talking about shipping systems versus shipping the particular model yeah that matters to how the system is. It manifests itself and how it presents itself to the world that really really matters. Oh hugely so there are simple UI innovations which have changed the world right and I absolutely think so we will see a lot more progress in the next couple of years as I think AI itself on a self improving track for UI itself like you know today. We are like constraining the models the models can't quite express themselves in terms of the UI to two people. But that is like you know if you think about it we've kind of boxed them in that way but given these models can code. You know they should be able to write the best interfaces to express their ideas over time right that is incredible idea so the API is already open. You can you create a really nice agent existing that continues it improves the way you can be talking to an AI yeah but a lot of that is the interface and then of course the incredible multimodal aspect of the interface that Google has been pushing these models are natively multimodal they can easily take content from any format put it in any format they can write a good user interface they probably understand your preference is better that over time. Like you know and so all this is like the evolution ahead right and so. That goes back to where we started the conversation I thought like I think there'll be dramatic evolution in the years ahead maybe one more kitchen question. This even further ridiculous concept of P doom so the philosophical minded folks in the AI community think about the probability that a GI and then ASI. My destroy all human civilization I would say my P doom is about 10% do you ever think about this kind of long term threat of ASI and what would your P doom be look for sure look I've both been very excited about AI but I've always felt this technology you know you have to actively think about the risks and work very very hard to",
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"text": "harness it in a way that it it all works out well on the P doom question look it's you know one surprise you say that's probably another micro kitchen conversation that pops up once in a while right and given how powerful the technology is maybe stepping back you know when you're running a large organization if you can kind of align the incentives of the organization you can achieve pretty much anything right like you know if you can get kind of people all marching in towards like a goal in a very focused way in a mission driven way you can pretty much get a lot of things. I can't really do much achieve anything but it's very tough to organize all of humanity that way but I think if P doom is actually high at some point all of humanity is like aligned in making sure that's not the case right and so will actually make more progress against it I think so the irony is so there is a self-modulating aspect there like I think if humanity collectively puts their mind to solving a problem whatever it is I think we can get there. So because of that you know I think I'm optimistic on the P doom scenarios but that doesn't mean I think the underlying risk is actually pretty high but I'm you know I have a lot of faith and humanity kind of rising up to the to meet that moment that's really well put I mean as the threat becomes more concrete and real humans do really come together and get their share together with the other thing I'm not going to do that. I think people don't often talk about is probability of doom without AI so there's all these other ways that humans can destroy themselves and it's very possible at least I believe so that AI will help us become smarter kinder to each other more efficient it will help more parts of the world flourish where wouldn't be less resource constrained which is often the source of military conflict intentions and so on. I also have to load into that what's the P doom without AI with the I with the I with the I with the I with the without AI because it's very possible the AI will be the thing that saves us saves human civilizations from all the other threats I agree with you I think I think it's insightful look I felt like to make progress on some of the toughest problems will be good to have AI like pair helping you right and and like you know so that resonates with me for sure yeah quick pause. Bathroom break. I know. If no book I'm was the same compared like what I saw today with beam if was compelling in the same kind of way blue my mind it was incredible I didn't think it's possible I didn't my I was like can imagine like the US president the Chinese president being able to do something like beam with the live meat translation working well so they both sitting and talking make progress a bit more. Yeah just for people who took a quick bath break and now we're talking about the demo I did will probably post it somewhere somehow maybe here the I got a chance to experience beam and it was. It's hard to describe in words how real it felt with just what is it six cameras incredible incredible it's one of the toughest products if you can't quite describe it to people even when we show it in slides it's like you don't know what it is. You have to kind of experience it on the world leaders front on politics geopolitics there's something really special again we're studying world war two. And how much could have been saved if Chamberlain met Stalin in person and I sometimes also struggle explaining to people articulating why I believe meeting in person for world leaders is powerful. It just seems naive to say that but there is something there in person and with beam I felt that same thing and then I'm unable to explain all I kept doing is what like a child does you look real you know and I mean I don't know if that makes meetings more productive or so on but it certainly makes them more. The same reason you want to show up to work versus remote sometimes that human connection I don't know what that is it's hard to put into words there's some there's something beautiful about great teams collaborating on a thing that's that's not captured by the productivity of that team or by whatever on paper.",
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"text": "There's some most beautiful moments you experience in life is at work pursuing a difficult thing together for many months. There's nothing like it you're in the trenches and yeah you do form bonds that way for sure and to be able to do that like somewhat remotely in that same personal touch I don't know that's a deeply fulfilling thing I know a lot of people I personally hate meetings because a significant percent of meetings when done poorly are don't serve a clear purpose. So but that's a meeting problem that's not a communication problem if you can improve the communication for the meetings that are useful. It's just incredible so yeah I was blown away by the great engineering behind it and then we get to see what impact that has that's really interesting but just incredible engineering really impressive. It is and obviously will work out over the years to make it more and more accessible but yeah even on a personal front outside of work meetings you know a grandmother who's far away from our grandchild and being able to you know have that kind of an interaction right all that I think will end up being very mean nothing substitute is being in person you know it's not always possible you know it could be a soldier deployed trying to talk to your loved ones so I think you know so that's what inspires us. When you and I hung out last year took a walk I remember I don't think we talked about this but I remember you know outside of that seeing dozens of articles written by analysts and experts and so on that Sunday I should step down because the perception was that Google was definitively losing the a. I race has lost its magic touch and the rapidly evolving technological landscape and now a year later it's crazy you showed this plot of all the things that were shipped over the past year. It's incredible and Gemini Pro is winning across many benchmarks and products as we sit here today so take me through that experience when there's all these articles saying you're the wrong guy to leave Google through this Google's lost is done it's over to today where Google's winning again what were some low points during that time. Look I am a lot strung back you know obviously like the main bet I made as a CEO is to really you know make sure the company was approaching everything in a AI first way really you know setting ourselves up to develop a G.I. responsibly right and and make sure we're putting out products which which embodies that things that are very very useful for people so look I knew even through moments like that last year. You know I had a good sense of what we were building internally right so I'd already made you know many important decisions you know bringing together teams of the caliber of brain and deep mine and setting up cool deep mine. There were things like we made the decision to invest in TPUs 10 years ago so we knew we were scaling up and building big models anytime you're in a situation like that a few aspects I'm good at tuning out noise right separating signal from noise do you skew but I like have you know you know it's amazing like I'm not good at it but I've done it a few times. But sometimes you jump in the ocean it's so choppy but you go down one feet under it's the calmest thing in the end there universe right so there's a version of that right like you know running Google. You know you may as well be coaching Barcelona Real Madrid for like you know you have a bad season so there are aspects to that but you know like look I'm good at tuning out the noise I do watch out for signals you know it's important to separate the signal from the noise so there are good people sometimes making good points outside so you want to listen to it you want to take that feedback in. But you know internally like you know you're making a set of consequential decisions. It has leaders you're making a lot of decisions many of them are like in consequential. It feels like but over time you learn that most of the decisions you're making on a day to day basis doesn't matter like you have to make them and you're making them just to keep things moving. But you have to make a few consequential decisions right and and we had.",
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"text": "Set up the right teams right leaders we had both class researchers we were training Gemini internally there are factors which were for example outside people may not have appreciated I mean TPUs are amazing but we had to ramp up TPUs too. That took time right and and at a scale actually having enough TPUs to get the compute needed. But I could see internally the trajectory we were on and and be you know I was so excited internally about the possible to me this moment felt like one of the biggest opportunities ahead for us as a company. But the opportunity space ahead or the next decade next 20 years is bigger than what has happened in the past. And I thought we were set up like better than most companies in the world to go realize that vision. I mean you had to make some consequential bold decisions like you mentioned the merger of deep mind and brain. Maybe it's my perspective just knowing humans I'm sure there's a lot of egos involved it's very difficult to merge teams and I'm sure there are some hard decisions to be made can you take me through your process of how you think that you're going to pull the trigger make that decision. Maybe we're some painful points how do you navigate those turbulent waters. Look we were fortunate to have two world class teams but you're right like it's like somebody coming and telling to you take Stanford and MIT right and then put them together and create a great department right and and easier said then done. But we were fortunate in a phenomenal teams both had their strengths you know they were on very differently right like brain was kind of a lot of diverse projects bottoms up and out of it came a lot of. Important research breakthroughs deep mind at the time had a strong vision of how you want to build a GI and so they were pursuing their direction. But I think through those moments luckily tapping into you know Jeff had expressed a desire to be more to go back to more of a scientific individual contributor routes you know you felt like management was taking up too much of his time. And and and Demis naturally I think you know was running deep mine and was a natural choice there. But I think it was your right you know took us a while to bring the teams together credit to Demis Jeff, Cori all the great people there. They worked super hard to combine the best of both worlds when you set up the team. A few sleepless nights here and there as we put that thing together we were patient in how we did it. So that it works well for the long term right and and some of that in that moment I think yes with things moving fast. I think you definitely felt the pressure but I think we pulled off that transition well and you know I think I think you know they obviously. Doing incredible work and there's a lot more incredible things ahead coming from them like we talked about you have a very calm even tempered respectful demeanor during that time whether it's the merger or just dealing with the noise. Uh where their times of frustration boiled over like did you. Uh have to go a bit more intense on everybody than you usually would probably you know probably you're right I think I think in the sense that in a was a moment where we were all driving hard but when you're on the trenches working with passion. You're going to have days right you disagree you argue but like all that I mean just part of the course of working intensely right and you know at the end of the day. All of us are doing what we are doing because the impact it can have we are motivated by it it's like you know for many of us this has been a long term. Uh journey and so it's been super exciting the positive moments far out way the kind of stressful moments just early this year I had a chance to celebrate back to back over two days like you know Nobel Prize for Jeff Finton and the next day a Nobel Prize for. Demons and John jumper you know you walked with people like that all that is super inspiring is there something like with you where you had to like put your foot down. Maybe with less versus more or like on the CEO and we're making we're doing this to my earlier point about consequential decisions you make there are decisions you make people can disagree pretty vehemently and.",
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"text": "But at some point like you make a clear decision and you just ask people to come it right like you know you can disagree. But it's time to disagree and come it so that we can get moving and. But it's putting the foot down or you know like you know it's a natural part of what all of us have to do and you know I think you can do that calmly I think you're very firm in the direction you are. Making the decision and I think if you're clear actually people over time respect that right like you know if you can make decisions with clarity. I find it very effective in meetings where you're making such decisions to hear everyone out. It's important when you can to hear everyone out sometimes what you're hearing actually influences how you think about and you're resting with it and making a decision. Sometimes you have a clear conviction and you state so look I. I you know this is how I feel and you know this is my conviction and you kind of placed a bet and you move on other big decisions like that I'm kind of intuitively assume the merger was the big one. I think there was a very important decision you know for the company to to meet the moment I think we had to make sure we were we were doing that and doing that well. I think there was a consequential decisions there were many other things we set up a AI infrastructure team like to really go meet the moment to scale up the compute we needed to and really brought teams from the spread parts of the company kind of created to move forward. You know bringing people like getting people to kind of work together physically both in London with deep mind and what we call gradient canopy which is where the mountain view Google deep mind teams are. But one of my favorite moments is I routinely walk multiple times per week to the gradient canopy building where our top researchers are working on the models. Sergei is often there amongst them right looking at you know getting an update on the models in Laska so all that I think that cultural part of getting the teams together back with that energy I didn't end up playing a big role too. What about the decision to recently add AI mode so Google search is the as they say the front page of the internet it's like a legendary minimalist thing with 10 blue links like that when people think Internet they think that page and now you're starting to mess with that. So the AI mode which is a separate tab and then integrating AI in the results I'm sure there are some battles in meetings on that one look in some ways when mobile came you know people wanted answers to more questions so we kind of constantly evolving it but you're right this moment you know that evolution because the underlying technologies becoming much more capable. You know you can have AI give a lot of context you know but one of our important design goals those when you come to Google search you're going to get a lot of context but you're going to go and find a lot of things out on the web so that will be true in AI mode in AI or views and so on. But I think to our earlier conversation we are still giving you access to links but think of the AI as a layer which is giving you context summary maybe in AI mode you can have a dialogue with it back and forth on your journey right and but through it all you're kind of learning what's out there in the world so those core principles don't change but I think AI mode allows us to push the we have our best models there. Right models which are using searches deep to really for every query you're asking kind of fanning out doing multiple searches like kind of assembling that knowledge in a way so you can go and consume what you want to write and and that's how we think about it. I got just a listen to a bunch of Elizabeth Liz read yeah describe this two things stood out to me that you mentioned one thing is what you were talking about is the query fan out. Which I didn't even think about before is the powerful aspect of integrating a bunch of stuff on the web for you in one place so yes it provides that context so that you can decide which page to then go on to the other really really big things big so the earlier in terms of productivity multiply there were talking about that she mentioned was language.",
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"text": "So one of the things you don't quite understand is it through AI mode you make for non-English speakers you make sort of let's say English language websites accessible by in the reasoning process as you try to figure out what you're looking for of course once you show up to a page you can use a basic translate but that process of figuring it out if you empathize with a large part of the world that doesn't speak to you. So in the world that doesn't speak English there like web is much smaller in that original language and so it unlocks again unlocks that huge cognitive capacity there we don't you take for granted here with all the bloggers and the journalist writing about AI mode you forget that this now unlocks. So because you're not as really good at translation. No it is I mean at the multi-modality the translation I said to you reason we're dramatically improving tool use like I support that power in the flow of search I think look I'm super excited with the I owe views we've seen the product has gotten much better we measured using all kinds of user metrics. So obviously driven strong growth of the product and you know we've been testing AI mode you know it's now in the hands of millions of people and the only metrics are very encouraging so look I'm excited about this next chapter chapter of search for people we're not thinking through or aware of this so there's the temple links with AI overview on top that provides a nice summarization you could expand it and you have sources and links now. Yep and but I believe at least let's say so I actually didn't notice it but there's ads in the AI overview also I don't think there's ads in AI mode. When ads in AI mode so no when do you think I mean it's okay we should say that in the 90s I remember the animated gifts banner gifts that take you to some shady websites that have nothing to do with anything add sense revolutionized that. It's one of the greatest inventions in recent history because it allows us for free to have access to all these kinds of services so ads fuel a lot of really powerful services and it and it's best it's showing you relevant ads but also very importantly in a way that's not super annoying in a classy way so when do you think it's possible to add ads into this. Add ads into AI mode and what does that look like from a classy non annoying perspective. Two things early part of AI mode will obviously focus more on the organic experience to make sure we're getting it right. I think the fundamental value of ads are it enables access to deploy the services to billions of people. Second is ads are the reason we've always taken ads seriously is we view ads as commercial information but it's still information and so we bring the same quality metrics to it. I think with the AI mode to our earlier conversation about I think AI itself will help us over time figure out you know the best way to do it. I think given we are giving context around everything we think it'll give us more opportunities to also explain okay here's some commercial information. Like today as a podcast or you do that certain spots and you probably figured out what's best in your podcast. I think so there are aspects of that but I think you know I think the underlying need of people value commercial information businesses are trying to connect to users. All that doesn't change in AI moment but look we will rethink it you've seen us in YouTube now do a mixture of subscription and ads like obviously. You know we are now introducing subscription offerings across everything and so as part of that we can optimize the optimization point will end up being a different place as well. You see it rejected in the possible future where AI mode completely replaces the template links plus AI overview. Our current plan is AI mode is going to be there as a separate tab for people who really want to experience that but it's not yet at the level where our main search pages. But as features work will keep migrating it to the main page and so you can view it as a continuum AI mode will offer you the bleeding edge experience. But it'll things that work will keep all flowing. To AI overviews in the main main experience and the idea that AI mode will still take you to the web to the human created web yes that's going to be a core design principle for us so really if users decide right they drive this yeah.",
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"text": "It's just exciting a little bit scary that I might change the internet. Because you Google has been dominating with a very specific look and idea of what it means to have the internet and to as you move to AI mode. I mean it's just a different experience. I think Liz was talking about I think you've mentioned that you ask more questions you ask longer questions dramatically different types of questions. Yeah, it actually fuels curiosity like I think is for me I've been asking just a much larger number of questions of this black box machine let's say whatever it is. And with the eye overviews interesting because I still value the human. I still ultimately want to end up on the human created web. But like you said the context really helps it helps us deliver higher quality referrals right you know where people are like they're much higher likelihood of finding what they're looking for they're exploring they're curious their intent is getting satisfied more so that's what all our metrics show. It makes the humans that create the web nervous the journalists are getting there they're already been nervous like we mentioned CNN is nervous because of podcasts. It makes people nervous look I think news and journalism will play an important role you know in the future be pretty committed to it right and so I think. Making sure that ecosystem in fact I think we'll be able to differentiate ourselves as a company over time because of our commitment there so it's it's something I think you know I definitely value a lot and and as we are designing will continue prioritizing approaches. I'm sure for the people who want they can have a fine tuned AI model this clickbait hit pieces that will replace current journalism. That's a shot of journalism forgive me but I I find that if you're looking for really strong criticism of things that Gemini is very good at providing that absolutely it's better than anything the for now I mean people concerned that there would be bias that's introduced that has the a assistance become more and more powerful there's incentive from sponsors. To roll in and try to control the output. Of the AI models but for now the objective criticism that's provided is way better than journalism of course argument is the journalists are still valuable but then I don't know the crowdsource journalism that we get on the open internet is also very very powerful I feel like they're all super important things I think it's good that you get a lot of crowdsourced information coming in. But I feel like there is real value for high quality journalism right and and I think these are all complimentary I think like I viewed as I find myself constantly seeking out also like try to find objective reporting on on things too and and sometimes you get more context from the crowd fund that sources you read online but I think both end up playing a super important role. So there's a spoken a little about about this dentist talked about this is sort of the. The slice of the web that will increasingly become about providing information for agents so we can think about is like two layers of the web one is for humans one is for agents do you see the AI agents do you see the one is for agents growing over time you see there's still being long term 5 10 years value for the human. Created human created for the purpose of human consumption web or will it all be agents in the end in today like not everyone does but you know you go to a you go to big retail store you love walking dial you love shopping or grocery store picking at food etc we're also online shopping and they're delivering right so both are complimentary and like that's true for restaurants etc. So I do feel like over time websites will also get better for humans they will be better design. I might actually design them better for humans so I expect the web to get a lot richer and more interesting and better to use. At the same time I think there'll be an agentic web which is also making a lot of progress. And you have to solve the business value and the incentives to make that work well right like for people to participate in it.",
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"text": "But I think both will coexist and obviously the agents may not need the same not may not they won't need the same design and the UI paradigm which humans need to interact with but I think both will both will be there. I have to ask you about chrome I have to say for me personally Google chrome is probably. I don't know I'd like to see where I would rank it but in this temptation this is not a recently bias although it might be a little bit but I think it's up there top three maybe the number one piece of software for me of all time. It's incredible it's really incredible the browser is our window to the web and chrome really continued for many years but even initially to push the innovation on that front when it was stale and it continues to challenge it continues to make it more performance so efficient just innovate constantly. And the the chrome you mass spect of it anyway. You were one of the pioneers of chrome pushing for it when it was an insane idea probably one of the ideas that was criticized and doubted and so on. So can you tell me the story of what it took to push for chrome what was your vision. Look it was a such a dynamic time in around 2004 2005 with Ajax the web suddenly becoming dynamic in a matter of few months flicker Gmail Google maps all kind of came into existence right like the fact that you have an interactive dynamic web. The web was evolving from simple text pages simple HTML to rich dynamic applications. But at the same time you could see the browser was never meant for that world right like JavaScript execution was super slow. You know the browser was far away from being an operating system for that rich modern web which was coming into coming into place. So that's the opportunity we saw like you know it's an amazing early team. I still remember the day we got a shell on WebKit running and how fast it was. You know we had the clear vision for building a browser like we wanted to bring core OS principles into the browser right like so we built a second or browser sandbox each tab was its own. These things are common now but at the time like it was pretty unique. We found an amazing team in our host and Mark with the leader who built the V8 the JavaScript PM which at the time was 25 times faster than any other JavaScript PM out there. And by the way you're right we open source the doll and you know and put it in chromium to but we really thought the web could work much better. You know much faster and you could be much safer browsing the web and the name chrome came was because we literally felt people were like the chrome of the browser was getting clunkier we wanted to minimize it. So that was the origins of the project definitely obviously highly biased person here talking about chrome but it's the most fun I've had building a product from the ground up and you know it was an extraordinary team had my co founders in the project with fixed definite phone memories. So for people don't know Sundar is probably fair to say you're the reason we have chrome yes I know there's a lot of incredible engineers but pushing for inside a company that probably was opposing it. Because it's the crazy idea because as everybody probably knows it's incredibly difficult to build a browser. You know look I Eric was the CEO at that time I think it was less that he was supposed to it he kind of first and knew what a crazy thing it is to go build a browser. And so he definitely was like this is you know there was a crazy aspect to actually wanting to go build a browser. But he was very supportive you know everyone of the founders where I think once we started you know building something and we could use it and see how much better from then on like you're really tinkering with the product and making it better it came to life pretty fast. What was the view draw from that from pushing through on a crazy idea in the early days that ends up being revolutionary what for future crazy ideas like it. I mean this this is something Larry and Sir gave articulated clearly I really internal internalized this early on which is you know they're whole feeling around working on moonshots like as a way when you work on something very ambitious first of all it attracts the best people right so that's an advantage you get.",
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"text": "Number two because it's so ambitious you don't have others working on something crazy so you pretty much have the path to your source right it's like way more self driving number three it is even if you end up quite not a completion what you set out to do and you end up doing 60 80% of it you'll end up being a terrific success so. So so you know that's the advice I would give people right I think like you know it's just aiming for big ideas has all these advantages and and it's risky but it also has all these advantages which people I don't think fully internalize I mean you mentioned one of the craziest biggest moonshots which is way more. It's one of when I first saw over a decade ago away more vehicle. Go sell driving car vehicle. It was for me it was an aha moment for robotics it made me fall in love with robotics even more than before gave me a glimpse of the future so it's incredible truly grateful for that project for what it symbolizes but it's also a crazy moonshot. It's for for a long time way most been just like you mentioned with scuba diving just not listening to anybody just calmly improving the system better better more testing just expanding the operation domain more and more first all congrats on 10 million paid robot taxi rides what lessons do you take from way more about like the persevere is the persistence on that project. All could really proud of the progress we have had with Paymo one of things I think we were very committed to you know the final 20% can look like you made we always say right the first 80% is easy the final 20% takes 80% of the time I think we are definitely. We're we're working through that face with Paymo but I was aware of that so but you know we knew we were at that stage. We knew we were the technology gap between while there were many people many other self driving companies we knew the technology gap was there. In fact right at the moment when others were doubting way more is when. I made the decision to invest more in way more right because so so in some ways it's counter intuitive but I think look we've always been a deep technology company and like. You know way more is a version of kind of building a a i robot that works well and so we get attracted to problems like that the caliber of the teams there you know phenomenal teams and so I know you follow the space super closely you know talking to someone who knows the space well. But it was very obvious it's going to get there and you know there's still more work to do but we you know it's a good example where we always prioritized being ambitious and safety at the same time right and and and equally committed to both and pushed hard and you know could be more thrilled with how it's working how much people love love the experience. And it this year is definitely we've scaled up a lot and will continue scaling up in 26 that said. The competition is heating up you've been friendly with Elon. Even though technical is a competitor but you've been friendly with a lot of textos in that way just show respect towards them and so on what do you think about the robot tax efforts that Tesla is doing this competition what do you think do you like the competition. We are one of the earliest and biggest backers of SpaceX has Google right so you know thrilled with what SpaceX is doing and fortunate to be investors as a company there right and and like we don't compete with Tesla directly we are not making cars etc right we are building L45 autonomy we're building a way more driver which is general purpose and can be used in many settings. They are obviously working on making Tesla self driving to just assume it's a de facto that Elon would succeed in whatever he does so like you know that that is not something I question so but I think we are so far from these spaces are such vast spaces like I think think about transportation the opportunity space. The way more drivers are general purpose technology we can apply in many situations so you have a vast green space in all future scenarios I see Tesla doing well and you know very more doing well like we mentioned with the new electric package I think is very possible that in the quote unquote AI package when the history is written autonomous vehicles some driving cars is like the big thing they change is everything.",
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"text": "Imagine over a period of a decade or two just the complete transition from manual during autonomous in ways we might not predict it might change the way we move about the world completely so that you know the possibility of that and then the second and third order effects as you're seeing now with Tesla very possibly you would see some internally with alphabet maybe way more maybe some of this is not going to be a lot of things. The German aerobatics stuff in my lead you into the other domains of robotics we should remember the way most of robot. It just happens to be out of four wheels so you you said the next big thing we can also throw that in the AI package the big aha moment might be in the space of robotics. We're doing that would look like. Demison the Google Deep point team is very focused on Gemini robotics right so we are definitely building. The underlying models well so we have a lot of investments there and I think we're also pretty cutting edge in our research there so we are definitely driving that direction. We obviously are thinking about applications in robotics will will kind of work seriously we are partnering with a few companies today. But it's an area I would say stay tuned we are you know we are yet to fully articulate our plans outside. But it's an area we are definitely committed to driving a lot of progress but I think AI ends up driving that massive progress of robotics the field has been held back. For a while I mean hardware has made extraordinary progress the software had been the challenge but you know with AI now and. And the and the generalize models we are building you know we have building these models getting them to work in the real world in a safe way in a generalized way is the frontier we're pushing pretty hard on well it's really necessary that the models and the different teams integrated to where all of them are pushing towards one world model that's being built. So from all these different angles multi model. You're ultimately trying to get Gemini. So the same thing that would make AI mode really effective in answering your questions which requires a kind of world model is the same kind of thing that would help a robot be useful in the physical world so everything is aligned that that is what makes this moment so unique because running a company. For the first time you can do one investment in a very deep horizontal way on top of which you can like drive multiple businesses forward right and you know and that's that's effectively what we're doing in Google and alphabet right. It's all coming together like it was planned ahead of time but it's not of course it's all distributed. I mean if Gmail and sheets and all these other incredible services I can sing Gmail praises for years I mean just just revolutionized email but the moment you start to integrate AI Gemini into Gmail. I mean that's the other thing speaking of productivity multiplier people complain about email but that changed everything email like the invention of email changed everything and it's been ripe there's been a few folks trying to revolutionize email some of them on top of Gmail but that's like ripe for the first time. For innovation not just spam filtering but you are you the demo the really nice demo of personal responses personal responses and at first I was like at first I felt really bad about that but then I realized that there's nothing wrong to feel bad about because you the example you gave is when a friend asks you know you went to whatever hiking location. Do you have any advice and they just search us through all your information to give them good advice and then you put the cherry on top maybe some love or whatever camaraderie but the informational aspect the knowledge transfer does for you I think the important moments like it should be like today. If you write a card in your own handwriting and send it to someone that's a special thing similarly there'll be a time to your friends maybe a friend wrote and said he's not doing well or something. You know those are moments you want to save your times for writing something reaching out but you know like saying give me all the details of the trip you took you know to me makes a lot of sense for a I assistant to help you write and so I think both are important but I think I think I'm excited about that.",
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"text": "Yeah I think ultimately it gives more time for us to do the things we humans find meaningful and I think it scares a lot of people because we're going to have to ask ourselves the hard question of like what do we find meaningful and I'm sure there's answers I mean it's the old question of the meaning meaning of existence as you you have to try to figure that out that might be ultimately parenting or being creative in some domains of art or writing and it challenges to like you know it's a good question of to ask yourself. Like in my life what is the thing that brings me most joy and fulfillment and if I'm able to actually focus more time on that that's really powerful. I think that's the you know that's the holy grave if you get this right I think it allows more people to find that I have to ask you on the programming front AI is getting really good at programming. Gemini but the agent it can just the alarm has been incredible so a lot of programmers are really worried that their jobs. They will lose their jobs how much should they be and how should they adjust so they can be thriving this new world or more and more code is written by AI I think a few things looking at Google. You know we've given way stats around like you know 30% of code now uses like AI generated suggestions or whatever it is but the most important metric and we carefully measure it as like. How much as our engineering velocity increased as a company due to AI right and it's like tough to measure and we can rigorously try to measure it. Under estimates are at that number is now at 10% right like now across the company we've accomplished a 10% engineering velocity increase using AI. But we plan to hire engineers more engineers next year right so because the opportunity space of what we can do is expanding to right and so. I think hopefully you know for at least the near to mid term for many engineers it frees up more and more of the. Even engineering and coding. There are aspects which are so much fun you're designing your architecting you're solving a problem is a lot of. Grant work you know which all goes hand in hand but it hopefully takes a lot of that away makes it even more fun to code frees you up more time to. Create problems all brainstorm with your fellow colleagues and so on right so that's that's the opportunity there. And second I think like you know it'll attract it'll put the creative power in more people's hands which means people create more that means there'll be more engineers doing more things. So it's tough to fully predict but you know I think in general in this moment. It feels like you know people adopt these tools and be better programmers. Like there are more people playing chess now than ever before right so. You know it feels positive that way to me at least speaking from within a Google context. So I would. Talk to them about it. I still I just know anecdotally a lot of great programmers are generating a lot of code so their productivity they're not always using all the code just you know it's there's still a lot of editing but like. Even for me it's the programming is a side thing I think I'm like 5x more productive I don't I think that's even for a large code base is touching a lot of users like Google's does i'm imagining like very soon that productivity should be going up a little more big unlock will be as we make the agent the capabilities much more robust right I think that's what unlocks that next big wave. I think the 10% is like a massive number like you know tomorrow like I showed up and said like yeah you can improve like a large organizations productivity by 10% when you have tens of thousands of engineers that's a phenomenal number. And you know that's different than what other site is statistics saying like you know like this percentage of code is now written by AI I'm talking more about like overall activity actual productivity right engineering productivity which is two different things. And which is the more important metric and but I think it'll get better right and like you know I think there's no engineer who tomorrow if you magically became 2x more productive.",
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"text": "Just gonna create more things you're gonna create more value added things and so I think they you'll find more satisfaction in your job right so. And there's a lot of aspects I mean the actual Google code base might just improve because it'll become more standardized more easier for people to move about the code base because AI will help. And therefore that will also allow the AI to understand the entire code base better which makes the engineering aspect so I've been using cursor a lot as a way to program with Gemini and other models is like it one of its powerful things it's aware of the entire code base and then I'll ask you to ask questions of it and It allows the agents to move about that code base in a really powerful way I mean that's a huge amount think about like you know migrations refactoring old code base is actually yeah I mean think think about like you know once we can do all this in a much better more robust way than where we are today. I think in the end everything will be written in JavaScript and running run in Chrome I think it's all going to that direction I mean just for fun Google has legendary code coding interviews. Like rigorous interviews for the engineers how can you comment on how that has changed in the air of AI it's just such a weird you know the whiteboard interview I assume is not allowed to have some problems such a good question look I do think you know we're making sure you know we'll introduce at least one round of in person interviews for people. Just to make sure the fundamentals are there I think they'll end up being important but it's an equally important skill look if you can use these tools to generate better code like you know I think I think that's an asset and so you know I think so overall I think it's a massive positive vibe coding engineer do you recommend people students interested in programming still get an education in computer science college education what do you think? I do if you have a passion for computer science I would you know computer science is obviously a lot more than programming alone so I would I still don't think I would change what you pursue I think I will horizontally allow impact every field it's pretty tough to predict in what ways. So any education in which you're learning good first principles thinking I think it's good education you've revolutionized web browsing you've revolutionized a lot of things over the years Android. Change the game it's an incredible operating system we could talk for hours about Android what is the future of Android look like is it is possible it becomes more and more AI centric especially now the throw into the mix Android XR with the be able to do augmented reality mix reality and virtual reality in the physical world. The best innovations in computing have come when you're through a paradigm I would change right like you know when when with Gwee and then with a graphically a center face and then with multi touch in the context of mobile voice later on. Similarly I feel like you know AR is that next paradigm I think it was held back both the system integration challenges making good AR is very very hard the second thing is you need AI to actually kind of otherwise the iOS to complicate for you to have a natural seamless I owe to that paradigm AI ends up being super important and so. This is why project Astra ends up being super critical for that Android XR world but it is I think when you use glasses and you know always been amazed like at the how useful these things are going to be so I look I think it's a real opportunity for Android. I think XR is one way will kind of really come to life but I think there's an opportunity to reading the mobile OS to right I think we've been kind of living in this paradigm of like apps and shortcuts all that won't go away but again like if you're trying to get stuff done I don't know operating system level you know it needs to be more agent takes so that you can kind of describe what you want to do or like it proactively understands what you're trying to do learns from how. How you're doing things over and over again and kind of adapting to you all that is kind of like the unlock we need to go and do with the basic efficient minimalist UI I've got a chance to try the glasses and they're incredible it's the little stuff it's hard to put into words but no latency it just works even that little map demo where you look down and you look up and there's a very smooth transition between the two.",
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"text": "And useful very small amount of useful information is shown to you enough not to distract from the world outside but enough to provide a bit of context when you get it and some of that. In order to bring that into reality of the solve a lot of the OS problems to make sure it works when you're integrating the AI into the whole thing so everything you do launches an agent that answers some basic question for good moonshot you know I like it's great but but you know I think we are you know but it's. Much closer to reality than other moonshots you know we expect to have. Glasses in the hands of developers later this year and you know in consumer science next year so it's an exciting time yeah well extremely well executed beam all the stuff you know because I sometimes you don't know like somebody commented on a. Top comment on one of the demos of beam they said this will either be killed off in five weeks or revolutionize all meetings in five years and there's very much Google tries so many things and sometimes sadly kills off very promising projects but because there's so many other things focus on I use I use so many Google products Google voice I still use i'm so glad that's not being killed off that's still alive thank you whoever's defending that because it's. It's awesome and it's great they keep innovating I just want to list off just as a big thank you so search obviously Google revolutionize chrome and all these can be multi hour conversations Gmail. I've been singing Gmail praises forever maps incredible technological innovation revolutionizing mapping Android like we talked about YouTube like we talked about add sense. Google translate for the academic mind to Google scholar. It's incredible when with the book and also the scanning of the books so making all the world's knowledge accessible even with that knowledge is a kind of niche thing which Google scholar is and then obviously with deep mind with alpha zero alpha fall alpha evolve I could talk forever but I'll evolve that's mind blowing all of that really just and as part of that set of things. You've released in this year when those brilliant articles were written about Google is done and like we talked about pioneering self driving cars and quantum computing which could be another thing that is low key is scuba diving it's way to changing the world forever so another pot has slash micro kitchen question if you build a GI. What kind of question would you ask it what would you what would you want to talk about definitively Google has created a GI that can basically answer any question what topic are you going to where where's it where you going. Secret question maybe it's proactive by then should tell me a few things I should know but I think if I were to ask it I think it'll help us understand ourselves much better in a way that'll surprise us I think and so maybe that's you already see people do it with the products and so but you know in a GI context I think that'll be pretty powerful. At a personal level or general human nature at a personal level like you're looking to a GI I think I think you know. There's some chance it'll kind of understand you in a very deep way I think you know in a profound way that's a possibility. I think there is also the obvious thing of like maybe it helps us understand the universe better you know in a way that expands the frontiers of our understanding of the world that is something super exciting. But look I really don't know I think you know haven't had access to something that powerful yet. But I think those are all possibilities I think on the personal level asking questions about yourself could a sequence of questions like that about what makes me happy I think it would be very surprised to learn to those kind of the a sequence of questions and answers we might explore some profound truths in a way that sometimes art reveals to us great books reveal to us great conversation with love the ones reveal. Things that are obvious and retrospect but are nice when they're said but for me number one question is about how many alien civilizations are 100% I'm going to be a first question number one how many living in dead alien civilizations maybe a bunch of follow ups like how close are they are they dangerous.",
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"text": "If there's no alien civilizations why or if there's no advanced aliens of the stations but bacteria like life everywhere why what is the barrier preventing you from getting to that is it because that there's that when you get sufficiently intelligent you end up destroying ourselves because you need competition or you develop an advanced civilization and when you have competitions going to lead to military confidence. I'm going to have that kind of an answer to the foamy parallel exactly and like have a real discussion about it. I'm not sure it's a I'm realizing now with your answer is a more productive answer because I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that information but maybe speaks to the general human curiosity that let's talk about the world is really curious and making the world's information accessible allows our curiosity be satiated some with AI even more. We can be more and more curious and learn more about the world about ourselves and it's so doing it was wonder if I don't know if you can comment on like is it possible to measure the not the GDP productivity increase like we talked about but maybe whatever that increases the breadth and depth of human knowledge that Google has unlocked with Google search and now with AI mode with the world. Gemini is a difficult thing to measure many years ago it was a he was a mighty study they just estimated the impact of Google search and they basically said it's the equivalent to on a per person basis it's few thousands of dollars per year per person right like is the value that got created per year right and and but it's yeah it's tough to capture these things right like you kind of take it take it for granted as these things come. And the frontier keeps moving but you know how do you measure the value of something like alpha fold over time right and and and so on so it's and also the increasing quality of life when you learn more I have to say like with some of the programming I do done by AI for some reason I'm more excited to program yeah and so the same with knowledge with discovering things about the world it makes you more excited to be alive it makes you more curious. And it keeps the more curious you are more exciting it is to live and experience the world and it's very hard to I don't know if that makes you more productive it probably not nearly as much as it makes you happy to be alive and that's a hard thing to measure the quality of life increases some of these things do. As they add continues to get better and better at everything that humans do what you think is the biggest thing that makes us humans special. Look I think stuff taught in the essence of humanity there's something about you know the consciousness we have what makes us uniquely human maybe the lines will blur over time and and it's tough to articulate but I hope hopefully you know we live in the world where if you make resources more plentiful and make the world lesser of a zero some game over time right and which it's not but you know in a resource constraint environment people perceive it to be right and and and so I hope the values of what makes us uniquely human empathy kindness all that surface is more is the aspirational hope I have. Yeah multiplied the compassion but also curiosity just the the banter the debates will have about the meaning of it all and I also think the scientific domains are the incredible worth the deep mind is doing I think will still continue to play to explore scientific questions mathematical questions, physics questions, even as AI gets better and better at helping us solve some of the questions. Sometimes the question itself is a really difficult thing. Both the right new questions to ask and the answers to them and the self-discovery process which you'll drive, I think, are early work with both co-scientists and AlphaEvolve, just a super exciting to see. What gives you hope about the future of human civilization?",
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"text": "I've always been an optimist and I look at, if you were to say you take the journey of human civilization, it's been, we've relentlessly made the world better in many ways. At any given moment in time there are big issues to work through, it may look but I always ask myself the question, would you have been born now or any other time in the past? I most often, not most often, almost always, would rather be born now. That's the extraordinary thing the human civilization has accomplished, and we've constantly made the world a better place. And so something tells me, as humanity, we always rise collectively to drive the frontier forward, so I expect it to be no different in the future. I agree with you totally, I'm truly grateful to be alive in this moment and I'm also really excited for the future and the work you and the incredible teams here are doing is one of the big reasons I'm excited for the future. So thank you, thank you for all the cool products you've built and please don't kill Google Voice. Thank you so much. We won't. Thank you for talking today. This was incredible. Thank you. Real pleasure. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sundar Pachai, the support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description or at lexfreedman.com slash sponsors. Shortly before this conversation, I got a chance to get a couple of demos that I frankly blew my mind. The engineering was really impressive. The first demo was Google Beam and the second demo was the XR glasses and some of it was caught on video. So I thought I would include here some of those video clips. Hey Lex, my name is Andrew. I lead the Google Beam team and we're going to be excited to show you a demo. We're going to show you I think a glimpse of something new. So that's the idea. A way to connect. A way to feel present from anywhere with anybody you'd care about. Here's Google Beam. This is a development platform that we've built. So there's a prototype here of Google Beam. There's one right down the hallway. I'm going to go down and turn that on in a second. We're going to experience it together. We'll be back in the same room. Wonderful. Whoa, okay. Here we are. All right. This is real already. Wow. This is real. We're going to see you. This is Google Beam. We're trying to make it feel like you and I could be anywhere in the world. But when these magic windows open, we're back together. I see you exactly the same way you see me. It's almost like we're sitting at the table, sharing a table together. I could turn from you, talk to you, share a meal with you, get to know you. So you can feel the depth of this. Wow. So for people who probably can't even imagine what this looks like, there's a 3D version that it looks real. You look real. It looks real to you. It looks like you're coming out of the screen. We quickly believe once we're in the game that we're just together. If you settle into it, you're naturally attuned to seeing the world like this and you just get used to seeing people this way. But literally from anywhere in the world with these magic screens. This is incredible. Wow. So I saw demos of this, but they don't come close to the experience of this. I think one of the top YouTube comments on one of the demos I saw was like, why would I want to hide definition? I haven't tried to turn off the camera, but this actually is, this feels like the camera has been turned off and we're just in the same room together. This is really compelling. That's right. I know it's kind of late in the day too, so I brought you a snack just in case you're a little bit hungry, but um, so what can you push it farther and it just becomes a lot? Let's try to float it between a room. You know, it kind of fades it from my room if you own it. And then you see my hand, the depth of my hand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you tried this. Try to give me a high five and there's almost a sensation of feeling touched. Yeah. Almost feel. Yes. Because you're so attuned to, you know, that should be a high five. It's feeling like you could connect with something that way. So it's kind of a magical experience. Oh, this is really nice. How much is it cost? Got a lot of companies testing it. We just announced that we're going to be bringing it to offices soon as a set of products. We've got some company helping us build these screens. But eventually, I think this will be at almost every screen. There's nothing. I'm not worrying anything. Well, I'm worrying a suit to clarify. I ain't wearing clothes. This is not a CGI. But outside of that, cool. And the audio is really good. And you can see me in the same three-dimensional way. Yeah. The audio is spatialized. So if I'm talking from here, of course, it sounds like I'm talking from here. You know, if I move you to the other side of the room. Wow. So these little subtle cues, these really matter to bring people together, all the non-verbals, all the emotion, the things that are lost today. Here it is. We put it back into the system. You pulled this off. Holy shit.",
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"text": "They pulled it off. And integrated into this, I saw the translation also. Right? This is the kind of bunch of things. Let me show you a couple kind of cool things. Let's do a little bit of work together. Maybe we could, um, critique one of your latest, uh, you know, it's you and I work together. So of course, we're in the same room, but with the superpower, I can bring other things in here with me. And it's nice. You know, it's like we could sit together. We could watch something. We could work. We've shared meals as a team together in the system. But once you do the presence, that's what you want to bring some other superpowers to it. And so you could do review code together. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I've got some slides I'm working on. You know, maybe you could help me with this. Keep your eyes on me for a second. I'll slide back into the center. I didn't really move. But the system just kind of puts us in the right spot and know that we need to. So you just turn to your laptop, the system moves you and then it does the overlay automatically. It kind of warps the room to put things in the spot that they need to be in. Everything has a place in the room. Everything has a sense of presence or spatial consistency. And that kind of makes it feel like we're together with us. Another thing. I should also say you're not just three-dimensional. It feels like you're leaning like out of the screen. You're like coming out of the screen. You're not just in that world three-dimensional. Yeah, exactly. Holy crap. We'll back to center. Okay. Okay. Let me tell you how this works. You probably already have the the premise of it. But there's two things. Two really hard things that we put together. One is a AI video model. So there's a set of cameras. You asked kind of about those earlier. There's six color cameras just like webcams that we have today. Taking video streams and feeding them into our AI model and turning that into a 3D video of you and I. It's effectively a light field. It's kind of an interactive 3D video that you can see from any perspective. That's transmitted over to the second thing and that's a light field display. And it's happening by directly. I see you and you see me both in our light field displays. These are effectively flat televisions or flat displays. But they have the sense of dimensionality, depth, sizes correct. You can see shadows and lighting are correct. And everything's correct from your vantage point. So if you move around ever so slightly and I hold still, you see a different perspective. You see kind of things that were included become reveal. You see shadows that move in the way they should move. All of that's computed and generated using our AI video model for you. It's based on your eye position. Where does the right scene need to be placed in this light field display? You just feel pregnant. There's real time, no latency. I'm not seeing you weren't freezing up at all. No, no, I hope not. I think it's you and I together real time. That's what you need for real communication and at a quality level. This is awesome. Realistic. Is it possible to do three people? Like is that going to move that way also? Yeah, let me let me kind of show you. So if she enters the room with us, you can see her. You can see me. And if we had more people, you eventually lose the sense of presence. You kind of shrink people down. You lose the sense of scale. So think of it as the window fits a certain number of people. If you want to fit a big group of people, you want the board room or the big room, you need like a much wider window. If you want to see, you know, just grandma and the kids, you can do smaller windows. So everybody has a seat at the table or everybody has a sense of where they belong and there's kind of the sense of presence that's obeyed. If you have too many people, you kind of go back to like 2D metaphors that were used to. People in one child placed anywhere. For the image I'm seeing, did you have to get scanned? I mean, I see you without being scanned. So it's just so much easier if you don't have to wear anything, you don't have to preach. Yeah. You just do it the way it's supposed to happen without anybody having to learn anything or putting anything on. I thought you had to solve the scanning problem, but here you don't. It's just cameras. It's just vision. It's video. Yeah, we're not trying to kind of make it a approximation of you because everything you do every day matters, you know, I cut myself anything, I put on a pin. All the little kind of aspects of you, those just happen. We don't have the time to scan or kind of capture those or dress avatars. We kind of appear as we appear. And so all that's transmitted truthfully at top of it. Christel, how you doing? Good to see you. 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"text": "continuing on your way. You can be fully conversational this way. You can ask questions, for example, about the paintings. You can interrupt. You can ask follow-up questions. And as I mentioned before, if you want to at any time pause, you just have there on the right. Gemini, how much does this painting cost? The painting is called the Bridge of Belief Elite 1875 by Armand Guilmet. It appears to be a friend and it would be impossible to know its cost without finding the cell. Okay, so this is fake. I understand. Why do humans pay so much money for paintings? People pay a lot for paintings because of their artistic merits. The artist's paying a sense of severity. I pretty appreciate you, didn't learn. So a few more things I want to show you just for a sake of time. You go ahead and long press on the side again to just look at them right there. There you go. Did you catch Google? I go last week by nature. Yes. So you might have seen on stage the Google Maps experience very briefly. I wanted to give you a chance to get a sense of what that feels like today. You can imagine you're walking down the street. If you look up like you're walking straight ahead, you get quick turn by turn directions. So you have a sense of what the next turn is like. Nice. You're holding your pocket. Oh, that's so intuitive. Sometimes you need that quick sense of which is the right way. Sometimes. So let's see, you're coming out of the way. I can out of a cab. You can just glance down at your feet. We have it set up to translate from Russian to English. I think I get to where the glasses you speak to me if you're from lines. I can speak Russian. Hi, friend. How are you doing? I'm doing well. How are you doing? Tempted to swear. Tempted to say the appropriate things. I see the transcript in real time. So obviously, based on the different languages and sequence of subjects and verbs, there's a slight delay sometimes, but it's really just like subtitles for the real world. Thank you for this. All right. Back to me. Hopefully watching videos of me having my mind blown like the Apes in 2001 space honestly playing with a model list was somewhat interesting. Like I said, I was very impressed. And now I thought if it's okay, I could make a few additional comments about the episode in just in general. In this conversation with Sundar Pachai, I discuss the concept of the Neolithic package, which is the set of innovations that came along with the first agricultural revolution about 12,000 years ago, which included the formation of social hierarchies, the early primitive forms of government, labor specialization, domestication of plants and animals, early forms of trade, large scale cooperations of humans, like that required to build yes, the pyramids and temples, like Gobekli Tepe. I think this may be the right way to actually talk about the inventions that changed human history, not just as a single invention, but as a kind of network of innovations and transformations that came along with it. And the productivity multiplier framework that I mentioned in the episode, I think is a nice way to try to concretize the impact of each of these inventions on the consideration. And we have to remember that each node in the network of the sort of fast follow on inventions is in itself a productivity multiplier, summer additive, summer multiplicative. So in some sense, the size of the network in the package is the thing that matters when you're trying to rank the impact of inventions on human history. The easy picks for the period of biggest transformation, at least in sort of modern-day discourse, is the industrial revolution or even in the 20th century, the computer or the internet. I think it's because it's easiest to intuit for modern-day humans, the impact, the exponential impact of those technologies. But recently, as opposed to changes week to week, but I have been doing a lot of reading on ancient human history. So recently, my pick for the number one invention would have to be the first agricultural revolution, the neolithic package that led to the formation of human civilizations. That's what enabled the scaling of the collective intelligence machine of humanity. And for us to become the early bootloader for the next 10,000 years of technological progress, which yes, includes AI and the tech that builds on top of AI. And of course, it could be argued that the word invention doesn't properly apply to the agriculture revolution. I think actually, you've all know, Harari argues that it wasn't the humans who were the inventors, but a handful of plant species, namely wheat, rice, and potatoes. This is strictly a",
"summary_synthesis": "The Neolithic package, which included social hierarchies and labor specialization, enabled the scaling of human civilization and technological progress.",
"summary_block": [
"The painting 'Bridge of Belief Elite 1875' by Armand Guilmet is discussed, with a note that its cost is unknown.",
"Humans pay high prices for paintings due to their artistic merits and the artist's reputation.",
"The Google Maps experience is highlighted, showcasing intuitive turn-by-turn directions.",
"Real-time translation from Russian to English is demonstrated, likened to subtitles for the real world.",
"The concept of the Neolithic package is introduced, emphasizing innovations from the first agricultural revolution.",
"The Neolithic package included social hierarchies, early government forms, labor specialization, and trade.",
"The speaker argues that the first agricultural revolution was the most significant invention, enabling human civilization's scaling.",
"The impact of inventions is discussed through a productivity multiplier framework, considering the network of innovations."
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"text": "fair perspective, but I'm having fun, like I said, with this discussion. Here, I just think of the entire earth as a system that continuously transforms and amusing the term invention in that context, asking the question of when was the biggest leap on the log scale plot of human progress. Will AI, AGI, ASI eventually take the number one spot on this ranking? I think it has a very good chance to do so. Do again, to the size of the network of inventions that will come along with it. I think we discussed in this podcast the kind of things that would be included in the so-called AI package, but I think there's a lot more possibilities, including a discussion previous podcasts and many previous podcasts, including with Daria Amadeh talking on the biological innovation side, the science progress side. In this podcast, I think we talk about something that I'm particularly excited about in the near term, which is unlocking the cognitive capacity, the entire landscape of brains that is the human species, making it more accessible through education and through machine translation, making information knowledge and the rapid learning and innovation process accessible to more humans, to the entire 8 billion, if you will. So I do think language or machine translation apply to all the different methods that we use on the internet to discover knowledge, is a big unlock. But there are a lot of other stuff in the so-called AI package, like discussed with Daria, curing all major human diseases. He really focuses on that in the machines of love and grace, essay. I think there will be huge leaps in productivity for human programmers and semi-autonomous human programmers, so humans in the loop, but most of the programming is done by AI agents. And then moving that towards a superhuman AI researcher that's doing the research that develops and programs the AI system in itself. I think there will be huge transformative effects from autonomous vehicles. These are the things that we maybe don't immediately understand or we understand from an economic perspective, but there will be a point when AI systems are able to interpret, understand, interact with the human world, the sufficient degree, to where many of the manually controlled human and loop systems rely on become fully autonomous. I think mobility is such a big part of human civilization that there will be effects on that. They're not just economic, but are social cultural and so on. And there's a lot more things I could talk about for a long time. So obviously the integration utilization of AI in the creation of art, film, music, I think the digitalization and automating basic functions of government and then integrating AI into that process. Thereby decreasing corruption and cost and increasing transparency and efficiency. I think we as humans and individual humans will continue to transition further and further into cyborgs. There's already an AI in the loop of the human condition and that will become increasingly so as the AI becomes more powerful. The thing I'm obviously really excited about is major breakthroughs in science and not just in the medical front but on physics, fundamental physics, which would then lead to energy breakthroughs increasing the chance that we become, we actually become a Kardashev type 1 civilization and then enabling us in so doing to do a stellar exploration of space and colonization of space. I think they're also in the near term much like with the industrial revolution that led to rapid specialization of skills of expertise, there might be a great sort of despecialization. So as the AI system become superhuman experts in particular fields, there might be greater and greater value to being the integrator of AI's for humans to be sort of generalists and so the great value of the human mind will come from the generalists, not the specialists. That's a real possibility that that changes the way we are about the world that we want to know a little bit of a lot of things and move about the world in that way. That could have when passing a certain threshold a complete shift in who we are as a collective intelligence as a",
"summary_synthesis": "The integration of AI into various sectors is expected to enhance efficiency and transparency, leading to significant productivity leaps and a potential shift in human skills from specialization to generalization.",
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"AI is expected to lead to significant productivity leaps for human programmers, with a shift towards semi-autonomous programming.",
"The integration of AI into various sectors, including art, government, and healthcare, could enhance efficiency and transparency.",
"There is excitement about breakthroughs in fundamental physics and energy that could enable space exploration and colonization.",
"The potential for a shift from specialization to generalization in human skills as AI systems become superhuman experts is highlighted."
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"text": "human species. Also as an aside when thinking about the invention that was the greatest in human history, again for a bit of fun, we have to remember that all of them build on top of each other and so we need to look at the delta, the step change on the I would say impossibly to perfectly measure plot of exponential human progress. Really we can go back to the entire history of life on earth and previous podcast guest, Nick Lane does a great job of this in his book Life Assending, listing these ten major inventions throughout the evolution of life on earth like DNA, photosynthesis, complex cells, sex, movement, sight, all those kinds of things. I forget the full list that's on there but I think that's so far from the human experience that my intuition about let's say productivity multipliers of those particular invention completely breaks down and a different framework is needed to understand the impact of these inventions of evolution. The origin of life on earth or even the big bang itself of course is the OG invention that set the stage for all the rest of it and there are probably many more turtles under that which are yet to be discovered. So anyway we live in interesting times fellow humans. I do believe the set of positive trajectories for humanity outnumber the set of negative trajectories but not by much. So let's not mess this up and now let me leave you with some words from French philosopher Jean-Darris-Brouillard. Out of difficulties grow miracles. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.",
"summary_synthesis": "The evolution of major inventions builds on previous discoveries, leading to exponential human progress and a predominance of positive trajectories for humanity.",
"summary_block": [
"The greatest inventions in human history build on each other, reflecting exponential human progress.",
"Nick Lane's book 'Life Ascending' lists ten major inventions throughout the evolution of life on earth, including DNA, photosynthesis, and complex cells.",
"Understanding the impact of these evolutionary inventions requires a different framework than traditional productivity multipliers.",
"The origin of life and the big bang are considered foundational inventions that set the stage for all subsequent developments.",
"There are likely many more discoveries yet to be made that could further illuminate the history of life.",
"The speaker believes that the positive trajectories for humanity slightly outnumber the negative ones, emphasizing the importance of not jeopardizing progress.",
"The quote from Jean-Darris-Brouillard highlights the potential for miracles to emerge from difficulties."
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"disclaimer": "This analysis is an original interpretation prepared by Art-Argentum.com based on the transcript of the source video. The original video content remains the property of the respective YouTube channel. Art-Argentum.com is not responsible for the accuracy or intent of the original material.",
"updated_at": "2026-02-13T11:35:52Z",
"context_source": "tca"
}